- Love, to be anything more than simple adoration, must involve sacrifice
- God showed his love through the sacrifice of His Son
- That sacrifice would have meant nothing were it not for our own sin
- Our own sin, although not desirable, is necessary for God to show us the magnitude of His love for us.
Perhaps, just perhaps, this is part of the reason for us to have free will, with the capacity to sin. Were it not for our own imperfection, God's love could only be adoration. John 3:16.
8 comments:
First question: What classes are you taking now?
Second question: Do you think there's free will in heaven?
The class I am taking now is "Old Testament Survey", a 20 week review, book-by-book. I know, you would have thought an M.S. in mechanical engineering by night school was bad enough.
The question you pose is a good one, and difficult to answer (without a ton of research) specifically for the spirits who do hard time on earth and then shuffle loose the mortal coil. It would seem unfortunate if those who properly exercise free will on earth are rewarded with... losing it in heaven. From a quick check of scripture, though, I'm certain that SOME form of free will exists in heaven. Check out the first 2 chapters of Job, and then Revelations 21:7-12. God tolerates some dissent, or else Satan would not be allowed to come & go from heaven at will.
Gotcha, I guess a class of that sort does tend you to think along the lines you posed in your posting. I hope you don't mind my posing questions to you, but the whole subject of religion is something I've given a tremendous amount of thought to over the past few years, and I've come to the opposite conclusion you have.
I think the logical answer to the question of free will in heaven is that, yes, free will exists in heaven. The example of Satan is a good one to illustrate that. You say that it would be unfair for someone who had free will on Earth to lose it and I agree, but would take it a step further.
If I live a good life and am rewarded with heaven, then I cannot lose free will. If I lose my free will, how can you say that it is still me? It may be something that was based on me, but it would no longer be me. Much like if you removed my capacity to love, and my sense of humor, it might resemble me, but it wouldn't be the full set of characteristics that constitute me.
The question then becomes, if God can create a place where its inhabitants can have free will, and yet there be no evil and suffering, then how can it be fair for humans to endure suffering and evil on Earth? You may say it is because of sin, but wasn't that what Jesus came for? Adam and Eve lived thousands of years before my birth. Jesus paid for their sins almost 2000 years before my birth. If God can make a place where evil and suffering aren't needed, then why does it still exist here on Earth?
I think what might be the apparent, though not actual loss of free will in heaven is acting in one accord. Everybody has known somebody who was so blatantly awesome at one or several things that you just wanted to do what he did or said to do, just to be more like him. I envision that times a million. I see heaven as a place where everybody praises God as if with one voice. Not because they are constrained to, but when confronted with pure glory... what else would you do? Maybe you could do otherwise, but you wouldn't even want to.
"Fairness", interestingly enough, is not a concept touted in the bible. At all. Even the Psalms and Proverbs talk of justice, but it is always acknowledged to be around the corner, or maybe over the horizon, and meted out when God is ready. Ecclesiastes says to not even worry about it, just live and enjoy the life and labor God has given you. Jesus wanted us to turn away when treated unfairly, even offering the shirt off our back to a thief.
Jesus did come to wipe away our sins and restore our relationship to God. However, even after acknowledging Christ's gift, sin still clouds our relationship with God. It doesn't impact our positional relationship (going to heaven), but does distance us from an understanding of His will for our lives and accomplishing the works he desires. Galatians chapter 5 has an good discussion of this. As long as we make the daily decision to sin in our fleshly weakness, and we all will, evil and suffering will reign. And, by and large, they do. Again, the second half of Galatians Ch. 5 touches on this.
The whole heaven concept doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, is what it boils down to. Your example of being in awe of God and not wanting to do otherwise doesn't really hold water. You brought up a prime example yourself: Satan. If Satan could be in God's presence and not praise him when confronted with pure glory, then your argument falls flat in that regards.
As far as fairness, I am not married to that particular word. You said unfortunate and that's apt. I still say that there must be free will in heaven, or you would be stripped of key components of your essence when going to heaven (and how can you say that its even you).
Another aspect to consider about heaven that doesn't make a whole lot of sense is the existence of Hell.
If you got to heaven, even with the awesomeness of God, how could it be heaven, pure bliss, if you knew others were in eternal torment? What if you got to heaven and discovered close friends or family members were in eternal torment. How can that be heaven? The "awe of God's greatness" argument doesn't really hold up, again using Satan as an example of its limits.
I hope you understand I'm not trying to be a dick about all this, I enjoy the discussion. I read Galatians but it doesn't really explain why, if Jesus atoned for original sin, why is there still suffering, when heaven proves that God can conceive of a system without suffering.
What you have to remember about Satan, from the prophet... Isaiah, I think, is that he was himself second in magnificence to only God, which led to his arrogance, and, ultimately, downfall. We could never claim such grandeur. While little is really said about the Satan/God relationship in the bible, considering the importance of the two to mankind, it is easy to imagine Satan growing corrupt when away from God, not in his presence. Of course, it is possible surprisingly little is said of Satan in the bible because Christianity is one of the few, if not only, religion where good wins in the end, as opposed to an endless Good/Evil struggle.
It is hard at times to reconcile our current feelings in this life with the possibility of pure bliss, which seems impossible while living a life of mostly struggle and conflict. However, I think this is the point where we have to simply hand it to God that He can make this work. Likewise, the continued existence of sin is not God trying to punish us. Look at Matthew chapter 13 (parable of the wheat and the tares) for some discussion of this. It is only God's grace that allows us to live an existence seeking him while wallowing in our sinful nature. That very nature is intolerable to God but for the sacrifice of Jesus, but we still do sin, and that is the cause of our suffering.
God is, by definition, greater than us, and to pretend that we can even begin to understand his plans, even with revelation of scripture and time in prayer, sells short that He is the Creator, while we are the created. So often (I do this too), we treat Him like a school principal whose punishment is flawed, arbitrary or vengeful. As long as we apply our own human perspective to our situation, we will fail to come to a place of true peace. To me, 1 Corinthians chapter 2, especially the final paragraph is the definitive biblical discussion on this point.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I'm going to bed!
Stew, I appreciate this exchange of ideas we’re having. I must say though, that the whole “God can figure it all out” or “We can’t understand God’s plan” is a dodge. It’s an excuse to stop thinking about something that doesn’t make any logical sense. Jefferson rightly said “Question boldly even the existence of God; because, if there be one, me must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.” (contrast that with Martin Luther’s “Reason is the greatest enemy of faith.”) If God created us with these magnificent minds and this powerful reason, he obviously expected us to use them. Yet everything you have said is couched in blindfolded fear (we can’t pretend to understand Him, we wallow in our sinful nature etc.).
Again I say that the concept of heaven does not make sense. First of all, you say yourself that “He can make this work.” Well, if he can make a blissful paradise WITH free will, then why do we suffer on Earth? You say it is because of our sinful nature, but I thought Jesus paid the penalty for that sin? Doesn’t it follow that Original Sin has been forgiven? So again, why do we still suffer on Earth? It doesn’t make sense. Question boldy.
If the Devil could grow corrupt while not in the presence of God, then that must mean that evil already existed. If evil already existed, then God created it. If God created it, then how can you say that he’s the good guy? Here I quote Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Do you know how many people God kills in the Bible? At least 2,270,465. The Devil kills 10. How do you read the Bible and determine that God is the good guy? I mean, he demanded a human sacrifice to appease him (Jesus), not even mentioning Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac (which he might as well have done, it makes no real moral difference).
Matt, your statistician shorted you on what should have been a trivial exercise. God is responsible for the death of EVERY person, animal, and plant in the bible (Job shows that even the devil could not end life without God allowing it). Likewise, before He is done he will be responsible for the death of every person we have ever known, myself, and you. He is also responsible for our very existence, along with the heavenly/demonic beings who are involved in whatever fashion.
Yes, evil exists, and the suffering it brings. It is the result of our sin, and Satan's fall, both the result of the free will that allows Christianity to be the cognitive study of revelation, and even the questioning you undertake. From the beginning of Genesis God viewed His creation as good, and even through the advent of sin His plans are brought to fruition, even using the evil actions of others to His end. God gave us, and Satan, free will. Does our abuse of it make it His fault? If I run a buiness and pay my employee's salary in a lump sum on January 1 and he blows it at the casino, am I evil? It is also made clear in the bible that one of God's attributes is righteousness, and that our continued existence is his tolerating our imperfection in hopes that we will accept the gift of forgiveness of sins provided by Jesus. This is the definition of grace. You need not accept it if you are disinclined. I fail to see how this makes Him a villain. Between now and the time Satan is overthrown, things that we do not like will happen and things God desires will happen. Does this make him unworshippable?
Even with original sin forgiven, we still have a sinful nature. Barring Jesus himself, there is no human who has lived perfectly free of sin. Hence continued suffering. Look at some of the great men of God in the bible, and you still see sin in their lives, along with the consequences. The apostles failed at points. Even those who seek to follow God's will face trials; as well as discipline when going astray. The outcome is a stronger believer, and a wiser person.
I would describe Christianity as the opposite of fear. "Fear" of God in the bible is generally a reference to respect, of course. What I find to be a fearful existence is the thought of living for nothing other than the moment, just waiting for the day for the lights to be turned off, and all my works of my hands erode quickly, and within 50 years even my descendants don't know my name. You are free to pursue this end, but you can read Ecclesiastes, Ernest Hemingway, Kurt Vonnegut, or Oscar Wilde and discover that the result is ennui and regret. Christianity instead provides hope. You can instead look to being an agent of good in a world that resents it, with a purpose beyond sensory enjoyment.
A question for you: if you do not believe in God, or even a non-omnipotent God, how can you define evil, or suffering, in a meaninful fashion?
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